SPEAKER_02 0:00

They're looked over, but they can do the job. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

With disabilities, I mean I'm I'm one of them. I couldn't do I had to leave my career because of my medical, my medical things are so unpredictable. So a a regular salary job is not actually in the cards for me anymore. I have to be able to work around. Yeah. Michelle Pill Rap.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

It's Tallow.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

So today we have Michelle here, who is the founder, inventor, creator, face, and CEO currently of TripMutz. So the first thing we're going to cover, I guess, is just the intro. So tell us a little bit about what the company is, like what the focus is, and then we'll dive into.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Right. So this was actually very accidental back in 2022. I had created a lickable tallow trait for dogs that lasted several months from one to ounce 10. So very low calorie, um, and not it it was an easy way to train my dogs when they were very young, get them to come to bed and enjoy their bedtime routine with just a couple licks. Uh and so that's how it started. And it was accidental because my husband cooking with tallow, the dog showed interest, and he was going to give them a whole spoonful. And I'm freaking out. And I I do research on everything. So I dive deep into is tallow even healthy for my dogs? Is this okay to give them? And we had these two ounce tins that we had created to give to 25 of our neighbors in these little gift bags during COVID.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Of the tallow, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Of the tallow for cooking with some of our favorite recipes. Oh, interesting. So we've been cooking with tallow for 15 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Initially, you this was for people for cooking. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

And it we and these are ones that we render ourselves from from local farms, uh, grass-fed, grass finished. And so I I just put a whole bunch of gift bags together with this recipe, goat milk soap um for their hands, it and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

And the intention was to start a business doing that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

No, or just gifts. This was just as gifts. And we had just um uh we were fostering and had just adopted our daughter from foster care as she was a teenager. It was about a month before her 17th birthday. And so that was part of like when she came in, she helped put the gif the bags together. It was kind of like our community thing during COVID shutdowns. And then I had a couple of these left in the cabinet. So when I'm like, okay, it's safer for the dogs, but don't give it to them off of a spoon. I mean, that's high calorie anyway. Like, why would you why are you gonna do that? And so I'm like, here, there's this two ounce, just let them look a little bit from that. And so we did that. Then we kept it next to our bed, and it lasted us four months with our three dogs, which are medium to large-sized dogs. And I had a friend ask me um for one, and so I had given it to her for her dogs, and she asked me again, well, uh, it was like several months later, if she could have another one and if she could give it to a friend. I'm like, no, you just go buy it yourself. You, I'm not gonna make you more. And she's like, Well, where do I get that? And I'm sitting there like, because I'm the researcher of the group, and I'm like, oh, you've gotta be kidding me. Um like you give it away. Did you ask Google? Did you ask Google? And so I started diving in and finding that there wasn't really anything on the market. Now there are little tallowed training treat type things you can find on Etsy. Um, not the same as five to six licks is one calorie um for the dogs. We're talking, you know, a little blob.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

And that's new to the market. That like they have not been out for that long on Etsy, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Um, I'm not sure. I I think this has been a thing for a long time where people would mix tallow with other things, but they're but they're in they would make it in molds. And then it would be like a treat that way. That to me is a lot of fat. Um, and so the way that we were handling it because of the way that we render tallow is they're they're only getting little taste without the calories. It's not a spoonful, it's not a glob um or anything like that. So that was originally the thing. I I was um home, not working at the time. I am a disabled um veteran and try to figure out what I can do around my medical conditions while my daughter's um with me at home and we're trying to get through a lot of traumas, and and what can give her purpose and can I teach her um, you know, business skills. Yeah. And so I thought, okay, well, we could probably make these um from licking from it and sell it as a lickable treat. So we started testing the market and it before we ever pre-launched, which was in um I think September 2022 was when we started selling uh before, and we I still call that a pre-launch. We never actually fully launched in the market because I've been doing a lot of testing and research and development and uh and other things in that in that time. And you're still improving, I mean, which I'm still improving talking about. And part of this is getting a lot of feedback. I've been working with Hello for 15 years. My dogs don't slobber, you know, and I we were, you know, we were trying to gather a lot of feedback, see how people are actually using it. Um, we got a lot of feedback from trainers on how they improved it. We were doing a tin. Now, of course, I was doing the uh an aluminum tin that I could get off of Amazon at the time, um, thinking that, you know, in the future we could manufacture our own. I wasn't going to keep those tins anyway, but then we found that dogs were stealing the treat, biting into the tin to get into it. And and what the soft aluminum tin was doing was it was folding, it wasn't cracking and breaking off, so they weren't getting injuries from it. Eating all of the tallow out of the tin is not a good thing. It's unlikely to cause any problems, but very high calorie at that point. We're at 480 calories in, you know, inside the entire tin. So that's a lot, and that's in a two-ounce. We used to carry a one ounce as well for small dogs. So, so we were gathering that feedback and we found that there are a lot of people that have no idea of what tallow is and aren't aware of how to know when it's turned bad. And so then we were trying to figure out okay, well, we have to get licenses for every state that we ship in. So as of right now, we only um are able to ship to five different states because we are waiting to get the other licenses until we can actually expand nationally. At this point, I'm thankful that we haven't expanded yet because we have completely pivoted on the business to begin with. And now we are not licking from the tin. I was really struggling with how some dogs should not be licking straight from the tin. Some are gonna dig their teeth into some, especially larger dogs are trying to take the entire tin and getting angry that they can't pull the entire tin because it's next to them. So then I was looking on the market. Well, can I use that they can lick from that is not going to cause that issue? And that's where we came up with the swizzle stick. And this is something that's already on the market. This is your drink stirrer. So, like you're at a bar or something and you're stirring it from a drink. Stainless steel, um, easy to wash and sanitize. Uh, so if like people, you know, some of the pet professionals that have a lot of dogs um are able to sanitize these, wash them, and then you don't have to worry about, you know, going from one container to the next.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

And I've personally used it for my dog and like my friend's dogs too. Right. And I just wipe it with like a clean towel and it's easy.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Yep, clean and dry. Um, and just swirling that into a little bit, a little bit goes a long way and does a lot of licks. And so they try to get, you know, lick all of it. Then I started lowering with the dogs. And that worked a lot better for your slobbery dogs, your dogs that are gonna try to take the tin and dig their teeth into um and just and to make it last longer. However, lasting longer, we have had tallow after it's been opened, that can still last a year and be good. Not all of it will last that long. And it has nothing to do with the way that we rendered it, it has to do with all of the variables that cause tallow to turn rancid and how it's being used by the individual. And so storage, exposure to air, probably, right? Like how long moisture, air, light, yeah, all of that. So, you know, in the tin, if it's closed, if it's clean and dry. Now, if saliva does get in there, tallow does not mold, it does not grow bacteria. Um, it is one of those things. And it because it's a fat, you know, oil and water don't mix. So saliva would like stay at the top. Yeah. Food particles that are inside of the saliva are the ones that can mold. And so we were finding some of these issues, and a lot of it is education-based. If you've haven't worked with tallow and you don't know how it works, then you're not able to take the steps to make sure that you're it's it's gonna last. You won't know to smell it to make sure that it still smells good or or to know when the color's changing that it might be turning. We don't want our animals to ever have rancid fats. Most of our picky pets are not going to lick it if it's turned rancid. They're not even gonna want it. And they're not gonna show any interest. However, you have the dogs, dogs especially, that eat anything, including your keys and your remote and your bigger breeds, I feel like are really common with that. The ones that eat inedible things are not gonna care. They're they I don't know that they have taste buds. And I and so, you know, to me, I want to make sure that they're protected. And so there's a couple different things that we're doing to change the game. And I didn't even get into the pill rap part yet. We're actually pivoting. So it was a lookable treat from the 10 when we started. We're not even gonna do that anymore because the education to do that, everyone's so busy, it's gonna be very, very difficult to get that information into the hands of the consumer when they need it. Um, and to make sure that it's used correctly and safe and in a safe way. And so we're not gonna even do that. We are still going to have the swizzle stick, but we are changing containers to a glass jar. The glass jar with an aluminum lid, um, black so that no light gets into it.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

And and that's the actual product right here.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

So this is, yes. Yeah, yep. And that, of course, I I poured into that one because we have not done um a new batch. So that's poured in. And yeah, so we can still do the swizzle stick for the treat.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

So people can still use it as a treat, but it's more in the form of a easily accessible for being and that's what I didn't get to yet.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Our our dog Roxy, we went through and um we went through a period of time with her, and she's always had a lot of medical conditions since she was like six months old. And a lot of that is genetic. She was a rescue, all three of our girls are rescue muts, hence trip muts, they look alike. So people think they're triplets. They're not not related. But she um she had an an illness, an injury, and itching from allergies all at the same time. She was on 12 pills a day for a period of time, and she could not get any kind of exercise because she had to be sedentary um with the hawk injury that she had as well. And so she's also prone to weight gain, not because of how we're feeding her. Um, she's also very, very picky. And I was doing everything to try to get her to take medication.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

We are researchers, so you did thorough research options.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I did, but I also, I mean, when you're desperate, you're gonna try anything. Whether or not you know that it's good for them, they need to take the the you need to take the medicine. It's kind of like antibiotics. Yeah. Even for dogs, antibiotics are one of the worst tasting for dogs. There are some that they have flavored and chewable, but not all of them. And same thing like with trazodone is is usually a really gross tasting one for dogs.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

And even still, at least in my experience, dogs, even when they have them flavored, they just know. Like their dogs are so smart and like their sense of smell is so powerful, they just know that it's a medication.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

But we have not right. We have several anaphylactic allergies in our home. And so there are a lot of products on the market that we can't even bring into our home. There's only a couple kibbles on the market that we can even use. Um, and uh so I'm looking and I'm like, okay, there's nothing that we can actually use on the market at that, at that period. No, but none of the pill wraps are safe in our home or the pill pockets are safe in our home. And so I I was trying cheese, hot dogs, peanut butter, um, all the all the the things that cream cheese, you know, she doesn't do well with dairy, but you're gonna a lot of dogs don't. No, but you're gonna do what you have to do. Yeah, right. And so we were trying all of it. She was finding the pill and she was spitting it out. Find the pill, spit it out. It got to the point she's my sole dog, and she's always been a mama's girl. And when I'm sick, she doesn't leave my side. I had a bowel obstruction, she didn't leave my side. I did before I even knew. I just knew that I wasn't feeling good before I went to the hospital. She she was keeping everyone away from me being very gentle with me and not leaving me. Wow. And uh she started avoiding me, staying on the other side of the house, getting away from me. She was facing the wall and putting her back to me. I mean, like it and it really broke my heart because I'm trying to get her to take her medicine. She needs to take her medicine. This is this is important for her. And um, and she was refusing and then starting to fight, and our bond was breaking. I sat on the floor sobbing.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

And at that point, I wasn't really able to cry for like several years for mental health issues. Uh and I it just all unleashed. I was so upset. And then I saw the tallow because I was sitting on the floor and I looked over and on the nightstand, I saw the tallow. I know a lot about tallow, and I know that it masks uh flavor and fragrance. And for some reason, it never dawned on me to try that.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah, so I'm trying everything for like because you're you're researching what's already out there and not thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

And what other people have tried, and and uh yeah, right. And so I go over there and I'm like, I just I just need something. And so I scooped a little bit and I molded it around the pill and she immediately took it. And then I did, and throughout that day, 12 pills the next day. Roxy, come do medicine. And she comes now and does her medicine. We are several years in, it's three years of doing this, and she takes daily meds still, and she comes every single time and gets excited. The other two are there getting excited. The only time she'll refuse she'll spit it out is if I forget a spot, and so there's a little spot, and then she'll just look at me like, yeah, you need to cover that a little more. And I just have to put a little, you know, another little blob on. And um, and so it it changed everything for us because I wasn't sure how I was gonna get through the rest of her life. And I mean, she's she's seven years old now, so she was four years old when we started using this method. Um, and it it has been a game changer. And so I started testing it with other people that were struggling, especially with their dogs that are having, you know, have cancer, nausea, um, no appetite, uh, the really picky dogs that have an injury, um, they need surgery, and they're sitting there and they're like, I don't know what I'm gonna do because I can't get them to take their medicine. And I've heard of dogs that are being euthanized because they can't treat them. And um, and so we started testing with a bunch of dogs and we were having the same kind of feedback. This is the only way that we've been able to do it. The trick though is that they have to already know the taste of it, and that's where using it as a treat comes in. It has to touch their tongue, so you can't just wrap a pill and give it to them for the first year.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

So then they're associating it in different methods, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Because you do have dogs that will never eat peanut butter again or never take cheese again, even though they used to love it, because they associate the side effects of the medication with that method. And so we really don't want that. So we do want them using it as um as a treat as well. But what we found was there weren't any, there weren't any other products that were on the market that were doing what this did and what this did for me, which is single ingredient, almost no protein. We're talking 1% protein. And so for dogs that are going through elimination diets and have um allergies and you're not sure what they are, as long as beef has been successful, um, this is not going to impact that. Uh, for dogs that have to be on low protein, maybe kidney disease, low phosphorus, um, all of those things, this is this is an actual option where they may not have had options before. It also doesn't have any kind of sugar, cyberctose corn cerebell, but doesn't have chicken, which is in almost everything. And Roxy's allergic to chicken.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

And and I think I told you I was doing research, and a lot of dogs are allergic to chicken.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yes, with her, she gets yeast infections and it's almost immediate, and then her her snout starts like um getting inflamed. Like you can almost see her lips getting inflamed, and she starts scratching her snout really bad, but then her ears become black same day with yeast.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

And and I am so glad that we we did an elimination diet and a hydrolyzed protein diet when she was younger, and then we retrialed chicken and chicken that we made that could not be cross-contaminated with anything. And then we thought, okay, well, is it all poultry? And so we tried some things that had turkey and duck in them. And of course, with food allergies with dogs, you actually have to wait several months really before you retrial another one. Not, it's not like humans with food allergies. And so we were trying other ones on the market. She was reacting to them. We thought it was all poultry, but then I'm like, oh wait, they're all made on the same lines. It could be cross-contamination with the chicken and the same processing facility, same processing plants. So let me just try duck and turkey by itself. And she doesn't seem to have as much of a problem. It's just that we would have to make it ourselves so that we know it's just, you know, plain, no contamination with chicken. Um, and so we found, and at one point I was wrapping, uh, we were doing like two Benadryl a day um for her, and I think twice a day. I'm almost thinking we were doing four Benadryl a day at one point before we moved to Zertec with her. Now we do Apaquil and we don't do Zertec at all. But it was like four a day. And I sat there and I just did an entire jar of tallow just wrapping. It took me a really long time. I had to take a lot of breaks. Um, and I think I it was 180 that I was able to wrap with um out of a two-ounce.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Um, and so you know, cost which which was only three months, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Roughly to apply. I get they're doing twice a day.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah, so depending on, and of course, you know, and histamines are a little smaller than some of the other medications. So, like her apacil right now is is larger than those. And so we probably, you know, we we get a little less than that. Um, and that was completely cover it. And that was about three calories per pill. So as opposed to a lot of the other things on the market. So when I get the well, it's fat, isn't it going to cause pancreatitis? We go back to what are what's what else is being used. Right, but so well it's not it's not just that. So there if the dog has a malabsorption issue with fat or certain types of pancreatitis, like pancreatitis necrosis, things like that. Now, of course the vet is going to be able to tell them, um, you know, tell their best pro their client whether or not it's it's right for them. But you they have to have fat in their diet or they die. Their brain shuts down, their organs shut down. Fat is essential in the diet. So is this actually moving the needle or is it not? And that's really going to be between their the vet and the client. How many pills are they taking? How much is it actually taking to cover them? Um, is this even making a difference? What were they using otherwise? Because when we're comparing this to the fat amount in the other products that could be up to 30 calories, um, one uh one recipe from a uh in a book um that's very popular is 75 calories per pill wrap.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Not even kidding.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

So people are buying these books and making them from home, or is this a book that people buy and they sell the product?

SPEAKER_01 19:52

No, they they get the book and they make it at home. It's a homemade DIY recipe.

unknown 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Interesting. So yes. So but but from the fat percentage, peanut butter, cheese, cream cheese, all of that actually has more than what this takes to coat it. It also doesn't, you know, like if you were gonna cover it with peanut butter, people aren't gonna sit there and try to coat with peanut butter. You can't anyway, and it's slimy and it comes off and they can taste it. And then the dogs don't like their texture.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Like a like my dog did not like the texture of peanut butter. Wouldn't it wouldn't eat it? Um, so basically, I guess so trip mutts, licky tallow, it solves the problem of one, like obviously it uses a pill wrap, right? To help dogs or even some cats, right, too.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yes. Oh, we do have cats that use it. I don't have cats, it's hard for me to really test on cats, and all cats are different. So I'm not gonna say it's gonna work for your cat.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Yeah, but but it's an option. But we have had success with some for cats and dogs, so it helps them take medication that they need that they otherwise would not take and would refuse, so it's easier for the owners, but then it also doubles as like a treat. And then it also, at least like from my view, and tell me like you know, correct me if I'm wrong, it like a little, you know, like you said before, the allergens. So it kind of eliminates a lot of allergens. I mean, yeah, it's not gonna be totally 100% allergen-free, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

If they have a true, right, if they have a true beef allergy, which is rare, it's rare to have a true beef allergy, but it's not containing it's not non-existent. 1% from such a small amount is still an extremely small amount. So will they actually react to it or not? Of course, each each dog is independent.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

That's gonna be the And the owners are gonna know if they have a beef allergy, right? So that should weed that out. I mean a lot of dog food, I guess, has either chicken or beef. So you so you'll find that out pretty easily. So correct. Um, so then I guess comparing it to other products similar in the market, it sounds like low, lower calories, right? Singling. Lower fat for the most part.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

So lower fat overall. So when we're talking about the amount of fat and calories overall. Overall, it is it is only fat. It's an entirely an entire fat.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

But when you look at something like cheese and peanut butter, the fat content is really large and how much you have to use of that to do the same thing that we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

That's where the difference is. Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

So it seems like it has a pretty, I mean, a big competitive advantage, right? Especially with the allergen factored in there. Cause a lot of things are cheese and peanut butter. Like for me, for the most part, that I've seen it's been 99% cheese and peanut butter, and maybe a little percentage of random stuff that that's you don't want to feed your dog in.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

And my thing, I have I have several autoimmune conditions, and um, and I do really well more on like a paleo autoimmune diet. But that's I mean, that's specific to me because of my digestive diseases, and I mean it is several autoimmune and inflammation in my body. So I do better with something like that. Um, for me, there's a whole bunch of foods that I I don't eat because they cause inflammation in my in my body. Well, Roxy has inflammation in her body. Things that I don't have any problem giving outla and Winnie because they're perfectly healthy and low levels of inflammation are healthy. That's a good thing. Keep your immune system ready, right? Hers is overactive, just like mine is overactive.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

So some of these methods that we that you know that I was using and that other people are using really even for humans, it it can be can be very inflammatory.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

It can it can be, but I think it's still individual. I I want to say from a diet perspective and food perspective, there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

So I don't want to say that our product is going to fit for everyone. And honestly, if you have a healthy dog and they're taking a medication for something short term and they do really well with some of the things on the market, okay. That's that's great. I think what we fit are the ones that are refusing, that aren't taking it from any other sources. Um, that are because you know, one thing that we didn't touch on yet is they just swallow this. They don't bite into it. The other methods usually they bite into, and that's where they get the taste and they spit out, right? We're not biting into this like a tree. They're used to the licking, they lick and they just swallow. So it's never actually getting onto their teeth to bite into. But we're looking at the ones that are really picky, the ones that have complex medical conditions, the ones that have um, you know, a high hydrolyzed protein diet. Maybe beef has been um successful, maybe they're testing right now, but this 1% is not, you know, they don't see that it's causing any kind of issue.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Um it sounds like maybe it for a more health conscious owner, too, right? Who because there's a lot of nutrition in tallow in general.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

I I would I would yes and no. So so while it does have some vitamins and minerals in it, it's at a very level. No, it's it's very treaty on the feel like it's negligible, it's not gonna harm them. It's kind of like it ha it has cold. Right. It's it for our purposes, don't look at that and think it's gonna make any difference with your dog. It's not. It's we're not using enough to make any difference.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

But I think it's alternative though, instead of using traditional like treats that you would grab in the store, using that as a treat is right.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah, I just don't want to say, hey, it's got vitamins A D E K.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Yeah, you know, the because Yeah, that's that's not the purpose of the Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

But that is out there. But there have been that is a lot of miscon that is a lot of misinformation that's pushed out there about tallow. And it's very small amounts, even in tallow. What it does do really well when you're cooking with it as a human and with your food, or what people that have to do a home cooked diet, if you're working with like a a vet nutritionist and they say to add beef tallow as your source of fat, um, what it does do is allow them to better absorb all those fat-soluble vitamins within the food. And so it helps with the absorption. That's really why I was using it for myself. And one of the things that helped to calm down my digestive diseases, like my celiac and my Crohn's and um, yeah, all of my great things is that I was better able to absorb the nutrients. So I had I I struggled with anemia, copper deficiency, B12 deficiency, all of the things that cannot supplements were not actually doing anything to me.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Yeah, because you can't absorb.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

And I wasn't absorbing them. And so adding tallow and cooking with tallow with the foods that were high in those allowed me to absorb the nutrients that I needed. Um, and that allowed my body to work better. And of course, lowered inflammation. And I was able to, um, with all the digestive diseases, tallow never gave me diarrhea um the same way that all the other fats did that I had to stay away from. Um, I didn't and it calmed my digestive tract. It's very neutral.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

So which is important for something like that, especially that's yes kind of a base. Perfect. No, thank you for telling our telling you or telling us our story.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

There, there's and there's so much to it, and I'm so sorry, Dereel.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

But there's no it's good information. It's good information. So I think and and we'll keep like talking about it too, but we're gonna move over to talk more about like the business as it is today. Um, my first question about the business as it is today is just how many times did it take you, I guess, like formulating to get to what we see now as the licky tallow.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

So the actual formula and how we render the tallow has stayed pretty consistent. Okay. Uh, we do render tallow a little differently than if you were going to buy it in the store for cooking purposes, or what you would say, you know, the natural skincare route with moisturizers has a lot of tallow. We're our tallow is not like that. Um, we do a different rendering process. A lot of the ones, say for moisturizers or um or candles. They take out the smell, right? They take out the smell and the fragrance. We don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

So if you if you smell it, if you smell it, it's a lifey smell, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

It is. It's it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

I can see how it's attractive to animals for sure. Well, for me, but it for me it's kind of faint, I feel like. But maybe I've I've smelled it a lot. Maybe that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Right. So, and I mean, but it think about a dog's nose. Yes. Yeah, no, it's like three times a hundred. If you cook with a corn tortilla in that, though, and you fry a corn tortilla in that, um, it's so, so good. So I for cooking, I love the flavor being infused in it. So, this is the same way that we render it for ourselves for our use. We only use kidney fat. So, tallows like cooking tallows and things that are used for moisturizers, they often use fat from all over the cow's body. Um, a lot of that fat is softer and so it's more scoopable. We actually want a firm, solid type of fat. Um, and so the kidney fat has the highest uh hardness level. Yeah. And that's important to us. So, like if I scoop this out, and I do the swizzle stick is for the treat. What we have also repurposed these little stainless steel um tongue scrapers or tongue, what is it? A um tongue depressor. Yeah, these are stainless steel tongue depressors to be able to slowly we scrape it. And then this create a pill wrap. Yep, and then you can kind of play with it and put it into like a little ball. Do you want to you wanna try?

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yes. I wish I wish we have some kind of pillow here. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

The one thing I forgot pills. I have some. Do you? I oh, okay. So funny story. I I had to take a really terrible antibiotic, huge, awful tasting antibiotic last year. Oh, I think it was last year. And it was so bad that every time I took it, and I I'm I take a lot of medications. This I I should not have a problem with any medication. I struggled, I was getting gag reflex, I was throwing up from it. It was so bad. Um, so I'm like, well, this works for dogs. So I actually I covered it in uh in tallow and made my own pillow wrap. And I took the I took the antibiotics and I I'll tell yes, yes, because it was a 10-day antibiotic. So I started doing that every single day for the antibiotic because it was the only way I could get it down.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Have you thought about going and doing it for humans? So because listen, I can't take I have a very hard time taking pills. I have to chew pills up. You know that, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Oh like, but is it because is it because of the taste though?

SPEAKER_02 30:03

No, I just can't swallow it. Okay, this one is really more than it's like if it's covered in something easier to swallow.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Look, you have you have licking tallow.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Myself swallowed.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

You can try it. I I was really weird at one event.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Let you know about drugs.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

I was really weird at one event that we had, and I opened one up and I'm like, look, it's it's safe for me too. And I licked a new one from the tin. No, my no dogs have licked it before me. It's it's it was hygienic. I let the dogs look it after me.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

That is so cool.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Wow, how dare you! Gave them your germs. Uh so right now, I guess it's you and your husband who are handling things primarily, but he's also working. He works full-time. Really, it's everything's falling on you.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Right. And it's it's really foundational stuff right now to get ready for a national expansion and and entering into the veterinary space. What we found is we really need to get this in front of vets because we want, we've seen how it impacts people. I have had people come and cry to me. And I'm not, I I can't even ask them to share, you know, if I could share their story because I it's so sacred. It's like such a sacred space. And there's a lot of people out there that are hurting. So I want to get it into their hands, but we also can't rush it. I'm glad we didn't rush it and we got to the point where we made some changes. Yeah. Um, and so it's really foundational um to set the stage to be able to go nationally. So right now it's me. I was trying to identify what would a team look like to bring this all the way to market. I do have a corporate retail background and and data management, and um, and I know I had a couple people in mind that I would love to be on my team that have a similar heart. Um, and then of course I found you too, Hove, which which is great. Um, one of my one of my friends, um, Rachel, I had been working on her uh from a marketing perspective for like two years. And she's the one who did um all of the brand design. And I mean, we're making some changes right now, but she was the one who designed the logo, the whole brand guide.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Uh, and then I have um uh someone else in mind that I would love to take over as a CEO spot, but does trade shows, um, exhibits, uh, gets in front of people, is not afraid to um talk and sell. Where I can't, I have a hard time selling. I can't take money for my own product. I really struggle with that. So I need someone else that can because a business can't survive or expand or reach the people that you need without funds. Yeah. Uh, but I have this major block because I just want to give everything away. And I would give everything away if I had the money to do that.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

But you also need to, and you are employing. I mean, you have employees right now. Some people you have a couple, you have to.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Well, I have I have one. So Ashley um it does uh administrative project type stuff. And she's not, she's an independent contractor because I have her on a project basis right now. I want her as an employee in the future. We just have to wait until we're we're at that point. Yeah. So right now I had two different research things that I just kind of handed over and let her run with. And so um she's been working on that. And um Ashley is incredible. Uh, she has cerebral palsy. Um, she can work a computer. Uh, she has not been given a chance with other employers because of the disabilities, um, because of difficulties with talking and with mobility. Um, highly intelligent with a bachelor's degree, but um was unable to find anything. But she is the most positive go-getter. I absolutely love her. I'm very excited. I'm I'm glad that she's part of the team. I feel bad that we haven't, you know, expanded just yet for her to, you know, be able to get more out of the business. But the who we hire in the future is what's that's why you can't give it away for free, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Yes. You're you're focusing on bringing in and give giving people livelihoods.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

You're you're telling me the things that my brain knows, but at the same time, I still have this conversation. I never and I because I because I can't I can't profit over off of someone's pain. Yeah. I can't do it. I have a major block and I understand it and I understand the value that we're doing, and I understand, I understand all of it. And there's a big part of me that's like, I just want to give it all away. And there are going to be, and we've talked about that too, having a separate arm, a nonprofit part, um, especially for the people that might not be able to afford um that that you know, I have a heart for those that are struggling that that are trying to take care of the animals the best that way they can, but they're even struggling to s you know to care for themselves. And that's really where my heart is. So I do. It's it's a mental block, and that's why um I have to have the right team in place.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

So how much how much is this product?

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Uh currently the retail is 20.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

And we we might have unfortunately, because the rising costs might have to increase it to 22. Um, we're going to try to hold back on that for right now and see what happens. Uh, but of course, costs are rising for everyone. So how many units are you selling now a month before the so we have stopped and pulled back to lower exposure um and visibility. And so we are not actually we do have people who I don't even know who have been using the product and continuously purchase it, but we've actually stopped sales, we've stopped events and she gives and pulled back.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Are you working on the other?

SPEAKER_01 35:14

I do, I still do, so I see it, and this is this is again where I I have a hard time taking money. Um, I'm still I still view us in the research and development wanting feedback. So I give almost everything away. I have refunded people on the website and just sent it to them. I have found out if someone like just you know messages me and asks a question, I'm like, ah, just give me your address. And um, but that's because I don't I don't view us as having actually launched yet. I still view us in the pre-launch research stage. Yeah. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 35:48

And there's been substantial changes even with how you're going to market and and recommend utilizing the product, right? So I think I think that definitely makes sense as to how you're pivoting. Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

And so once we so once our labels are finalized, which um so Rachel's been working on those, uh, and of course, labels have to be finalized to meet all of the government regulation. Each state is different. I don't know if a lot of people know that. Label labeling laws are different in each state. Um, we have to abide by all 50 states.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

That's why we have a lot of licensing laws.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Uh the information on the front, the back, the yes. And then we have to, of course, you always have to be careful of any kind of claims that you might make. We don't want to make those claims. I am very excited about certain research. So when I read like research and clinical studies and things like that, I get very excited about that. Um, of course, I I want this to be neutral to that to the most part, because you're only using a small amount anyway. So let me be excited about it on my own. Don't worry about it. Ignore me.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

So cool.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Uh yeah, so um right. So well, I now I just lost my train of thought because no, that that was perfect.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

So yeah, so basically, um which is it's interesting. So what what you said was interesting though, because in business it's funny that you get I get really excited about some stuff too. Yeah, sometimes too much, and like it overwhelms or or he like, yeah. So like we have to have conversations, then he I have to explain to him, like, hey, I'm excited about it, not in a different way. Like, I'm excited because I love what I'm doing and it's exciting and it's happy and it's just fun for me, you know. So it's like he does too. Me too. But I just get so excited, probably too excited, like a kid. But I'm not gonna be there, yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

I'm not gonna be there and demonize other sources, and I'm also not gonna do that because I think all of them have a place. I I'm not, I I think, I think the nuances, I don't think things are as black and white as sometimes um things want to be sold to that. I really don't. I also think each individual, human and animal alike, are we're very complex and there's no one size fits all. It does, it doesn't exist. Um, I do think that we have we we have a niche that's not being filled right now. Um, that that I looked for products, you know, other tallow products and stuff that could meet this need that I could just, you know, point people in that direction and I haven't found it. And so I feel the responsibility, I think, in order to bring this forward and having the skill set and knowing the people that can bring this forward.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Which that is a big deal and a skill that a lot of entrepreneurs don't necessarily have and they have to build and work on that. Some of them never get there because they want to be the one doing it all. So we've been doing this solopreneur to entrepreneur or solopreneur to enterprise journey where we talk to our people, our guests we bring on, and we kind of talked through. We did a series where we talked through like how to get there. So right now, in your phase, like you're a solopreneur because you're doing everything, wearing all the hats. You do have a contract, you have your husband, you you outsource accounting. So what we're we're working on, your accounting um and various things.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

The things that stress me out. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Yes, yeah. What which, yeah, it can be, it can be.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

I was an accounting major, so I'm very ashamed by that. But yes, there's too much.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

But you're smart, you you couldn't get it. But yeah, I mean everyone's specializing and knowing their place. But so it's you said a couple things that I want to talk about. So your journey, because eventually you want it to be an enterprise so that way you can employ people who are underserved and not really they're looked over, but they can do the job.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Those with disabilities. I mean, I'm I'm one of them. I couldn't do, I had to leave my career because of my medical, my medical things are so unpredictable. So a a regular salaried job is not actually in the cards for me anymore. I have to be able to work around that.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Um, so people like that, um, uh, those with um who have aged out of foster care really have our our heart. Yeah. Those that have traumas that need a safe, trauma-informed environment. Um, that's a that was has been a big deal to us from the start. Um, while we've worked through our journey with our daughter, which uh this is our our story with our daughter is public. She's pulled me into things. She actually has an event today that she got all dolled up for for Tennessee Kids Belong. So which she's an ambassador and she loves sharing her story of how we even found her before um and why she's still alive. Um, and so those things are important to us, and that's what we want to ultimately get to. The core team does have to have the skills and knowledge in order to get it moved nationally. And that's small business owners that have small business mindset don't actually understand the intricacies of uh your corporate distributors, your and it's a very a national brand is very, very different than um being a small drive of all the different things.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

There's like just like you were saying, if a note you have to have people who can know that and research and make sure that you're compliant.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

And then we can hire the other ones, yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

So that being said, so for the CEO, like I know you have someone in mind who we've talked about, seems absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

I'm not gonna drop her name right now because I don't know if she wants me to.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yes, yeah, perfect per seems like a perfect fit though. Um, but that being said, what are the key areas that you're things that you're looking for when you're like, yes, she's perfect CEO in your brain as the entrepreneur, as the creator of the business, like what key areas?

SPEAKER_01 40:59

So so there's a lot of different things that go into becoming a national brand and a lot of moving pieces. And a lot of that is administrative, but there's also the the traveling that you know for the conventions and the trade shows that are very important.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Um probably understanding the industry probably was a big thing for ESI.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yes, understanding the industry, understanding the contracts. Um, contracts are huge. And this, I mean, this goes into so much detail that people small businesses often don't price their product um in order to actually wholesale to get it into the hands of the consumer. And um, especially with the contracts that they have with with retailers. So working corporate retail, I saw some of those small businesses go bankrupt because they weren't taking into consideration and had no idea what chargebacks were, what you know, for um things like returns or damages or what they were supposed to do for marketing. Um they would sign contracts without actually understanding it. And and so having someone on the team that actually understands contracts can enter into it, can do the negotiations, can make sure that we're priced effectively, that we can actually cover our costs. Uh we need to be able to cover our costs. And there are significant costs.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Um, and of course, you are very lean in pricing. So we we worked on something like that semi together. And you're lean on pricing. However, that's something that you did a good job that a lot of business owners don't, though. That I noticed is you were like, Yes, I want to be lean and aggressive in pricing, how not overcharge. However, you were like, Okay, I understand we obviously have to cover cost of goods and we have to cover our people.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Yeah, and you need to have money to be able to grow and expand to reach more people, and then eventually to give into the nonprofit. Correct. So that's that's something that um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Right. And so so looking for that, looking for the people that can actually pull data from like so there's four main distributors um with the with the in the veterinary space. Um, being able to get in with them is going to be a process. Usually we have to be in with some veterinary, you know, some vet offices first. So we need to really go and find those independent vet offices first.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

So relationship building is relationship building, yes. Being organized, yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

The ability to travel, and probably, I mean, being able to probably almost being able to be like being able to pull and analyze data, analyze data, um, being able to grant to get that feedback contracts um because we want to know what's working, what's not. Are we providing the information that the vets and the clients so all throughout the chain, do we are we providing the information that they need in a way that's easily easy to absorb and retain um without being overwhelming? I love information and data, but that also means that I have the tendency to overshare and give too much. And that can overwhelm a lot of people. Yes, yeah. And and so in this world that we live in where we are bombarded by messaging, how do we disseminate that effectively? That's actually one of the reasons why we no longer say lick from the container, and also is because we needed to cut down on the misuse and adding. Too much information more than what's yeah necessary and focus really on our highest value for the market. There are other training things. I mean, there's other training traits and traits that are out there that are amazing on the market. So as the pill wrap, that's where we really shine. So I want people that understand data to pull it, understand sales um and contracts, um, understand how to create processes that are easy and replicable and um and I'm gonna say it, but without having to rely on like things like AI.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Um people with problem solving skills, which is a hard thing to find lately. We have experienced that within our firm.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Yes, problem solving is so underbody.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Yeah, right. I had a potential intern um at an event we were at MTSU recently. They asked, they asked a good question. He was like, What's the number one skill that you would like to have in an intern that would make someone successful? And I was like, great question. I have a great answer for you. Ready? And he was like expecting something, I think, big. And I was like, problem solving. He's like, problem solving. I was like, problem solving.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Knowing how to research, knowing how to research, I think, and and actually understand the data that's in front of you, the source of it, whether it's you know, right, correct. Um, so and not just putting something into grok or quad and expecting that to give you the correct answer. I'm not saying that those tools are they're they're very useful. They can be useful, but they're they can't be the end result, and it does not replace your need to actually dig in deeper to it.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Exactly. And like I tell um our team that too. I'm like, I like the use of AI, I think it's great, it makes us more efficient, it makes us faster, it makes us more knowledgeable in some cases. I was like, however, it needs to be almost like an assistant, like a tool. Right. It's not functioning as you, it needs to be a tool, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Make some templates, make some like, you know, help help ask it to help you quickly research, digest something, but at the end of the day, like fact check itself, give you the link to the actual information from a reputable source and then go there and look. Yes. Yeah, I agree. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

So I'm really impressed at how much you know about this business. How do you learn that? Was that from your corporate background or for all of the GRs of research?

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Uh I mean, I think it's been in my entire life. I I my parents are very entrepreneurial. Um my mom is the a director of finance for um for I don't even know. I think that's still her title at the company she's at. I don't know. And then my dad owns a business um up in Pennsylvania. I ever since I was very young, I was in business. And uh and so that's always been a um small business, has always been more of my heart. And so working for a for corporate for Fortune 200 companies was not something that was in my plans when we moved to Nashville. I decided to temp while I was waiting to transfer into um lipscomb uh here in Nashville, uh, after I changed my major five times. Um I do not have a degree, by the way. I do not have a degree, but that's because I don't that wasn't the end goal.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

But it did yeah, the learning is but no that that's interesting. So you don't have a degree, but you spend a lot of time in school education, and I've rented it.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

I have enough I have enough credits for a master's I have enough enough credits for a master's degree, but I have not completed there's like one or two classes in each degree field that I have.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

But do you think it's because you couldn't decide a direction? Because I've heard that from a lot of entrepreneurs, and that's typically because they when I fell into my career, a degree was no longer necessary.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Sure. So then it was just what classes actually help round out my knowledge and help me to learn something new for the career that I was in when I when I worked in master data management. That makes sense. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

No, thank you for that. So the next thing we're gonna go over in just a second after this brief.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Um, but no, okay. Uh so we learned a lot about the business, the background, kind of where you are now, right? Then and kind of what you're looking to do. So we're gonna talk about the process of building a team, which we've kind of gotten into, but we'll go above honey on that.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

I I have a lot of questions about that. So that's so interesting. So also now we could